Talk:Loot: Difference between revisions

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weapon value tables and variance
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I'll post some mockups later today to get feedback on the format before we update the page later. --{{User:Tlosk/Sig}} 15:08, January 8, 2010 (UTC)
I'll post some mockups later today to get feedback on the format before we update the page later. --{{User:Tlosk/Sig}} 15:08, January 8, 2010 (UTC)
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|  Text = I wanted to update my progress on this, I've automated the collection of tens of thousands of weapon stats to verify some remaining questions but the number of permutations on stats and individually named weapons has made it more difficult that I anticipated to find edge cases with confidence. So I'll continue working on it and hope to have some mockups to post soon that will elegantly display relevant information while minimizing redundant information. It may be too much to include on the loot page itself, so I'm considering breaking it up into a summary on the loot page and more detailed information on the weapon pages (either individual for each type withing a weapon category or just all together on the weapon page). --{{User:Tlosk/Sig}} 19:32, January 26, 2010 (UTC)
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  |  Text = You are correct, I suspect it is just because Spear and Mace are so disused that it hasn't been noticed earlier. We are redoing the table (see discussion above) and I'll incorporate these differences into the table, thanks for point it out. --15:08, January 8, 2010 (UTC)
  |  Text = You are correct, I suspect it is just because Spear and Mace are so disused that it hasn't been noticed earlier. We are redoing the table (see discussion above) and I'll incorporate these differences into the table, thanks for point it out. I had assumed that they had been normalized like the other weapon types (like jos, shamishirs, etc) so that all the types in a req range have the same value ranges. --15:08, January 8, 2010 (UTC)
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Latest revision as of 19:32, 26 January 2010

Weapon Variance

Variance is: (max-min)/max, not min/max. The best weapons have the lowest variance, not the highest. For Mace and Dagger, I changed the header to Min Variance, and plugged in the correct values. The rest of the melee weapons still need to be fixed. It would be even better if somehow the variance column was computed from the minimum and maximum damage values.
--RhiannaE 10:20, December 9, 2009 (UTC)

I came here because this was mentioned on the official forums. The variances are a mess. Some use the correct (max-min)/max and some use min/max. Some are obviously based on the "best weapon" stats, and some appear to be but don't jive with the numbers right next to them. Take for example the hiltable daggers 400 wield where the best variance is given (in correct format but incorrect value) as 0.9 next to a 0.3-2 dagger which would be 0.85.

Another thing I question is the format of the charts themselves, as they list a separate best variance for each wield tier. I don't believe variances are wield dependent, and I'll have to find a recent dev comment that confirms that. (It was in the forums in a thread about tier 7 staves.) This would be one best variance per weapon sub-type, usually same the across sub-types of a weapon type, but with some differences such as two handed spears versus cleaving weapons.

Finally, the difference between 420 and 400 wields (and equivalent in bows/wands) seems to be undefined in tier 7. The wield itself appears to be just another mutation, and tier 7 400s can have stats equal to 420s. I don't have hard evidence of that, though.

I wouldn't mind cleaning up the charts myself, but I'm not sure how to proceed at this point, especially if we change the format of the charts. I can copypasta and clean up values, but I don't know the pseudocode for Wiki well enough to build charts from scratch. I do know html quite well, and I can see that direct html works fine in many cases, but it would be best to use the wikicode for this. I might just change and normalize variances in the meantime, using the best variance in the chart, and change the labels to consistently state "best variance" instead of minimum or maximum. --Elije 22:43, January 4, 2010 (UTC)

When I originally edited the dagger table, I assumed the 0.3-2 dmg was a typo, and that 0.2-2 was the maximum. But I have since found a 0.4-2 hiltable dagger in game, so it's likely 0.3-2 exists as well. Unfortunately I didn't screen shot the 0.4-2 dagger before I blew it up.

I agree with your observation, that Tier 7 400 and 420 wield weapons likely all have the same maximum damage, best variance, and maximum attack, melee d, magic d, and missile d modifiers. Tier 7 370 wield weapons also appear to have the same maximum modifiers. Specifically the max mods for tier 7 370, 400 and 420 wield appear to be 20/20/4/4. With the exception of jittes and UAs, which are 20/25/4/4. --RhiannaE 05:38, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

Bear in mind that since the Ancient Powers patch this page has been a work in progress, especially for the first year. Since until only recently the rate of finding maxed weapons was very low for the new tier quite a bit was uncertain for a long time. So this was more of a big scratch pad than a written in stone reference. However that has changed now that we have confidence in most of the values. You're absolutely right that the tables could use a refresh and I'll get right on that.

The problem with variance is the convention varies from server to server, in what you most commonly hear in /cg, some places you'd hear people ask for .6 swords, on others you'd hear .4. I suspect it's mostly because variance is a fairly abstract concept for most people without statistical training and because of the inclination to consider higher number values to be better/maximum and lower numbers to be worse/minimum so they default to using a simple ratio rather than calculating the true variance.

Because neither the values .4 nor .6 convey more information one over the other, it just depends on what value you're expecting based on the convention you're used to for AC weapon variance, I have an idea on how to display this information in a way that will be convention neutral.

I'll post some mockups later today to get feedback on the format before we update the page later. --How often to wash makeup brushes? ,<a href=http://cheap-macmakeupor.webs.com/#38275>wholesale mac makeup</a> ,,http://clarisonicmia2us.webs.com/#18392 15:08, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

I wanted to update my progress on this, I've automated the collection of tens of thousands of weapon stats to verify some remaining questions but the number of permutations on stats and individually named weapons has made it more difficult that I anticipated to find edge cases with confidence. So I'll continue working on it and hope to have some mockups to post soon that will elegantly display relevant information while minimizing redundant information. It may be too much to include on the loot page itself, so I'm considering breaking it up into a summary on the loot page and more detailed information on the weapon pages (either individual for each type withing a weapon category or just all together on the weapon page). --How often to wash makeup brushes? ,<a href=http://cheap-macmakeupor.webs.com/#38275>wholesale mac makeup</a> ,,http://clarisonicmia2us.webs.com/#18392 19:32, January 26, 2010 (UTC)

Loot Weapons

Question: For spears (naginatas) and spiked (maces), don't they have a lower damage? If so, I imagine the spear tables and mace tables would need to be changed to reflect that. I'm going off the following information from this website: http://www.kayoss.net/weapondamages.htm --Logan Conrad 16:16, November 6, 2009 (UTC)

You are correct, I suspect it is just because Spear and Mace are so disused that it hasn't been noticed earlier. We are redoing the table (see discussion above) and I'll incorporate these differences into the table, thanks for point it out. I had assumed that they had been normalized like the other weapon types (like jos, shamishirs, etc) so that all the types in a req range have the same value ranges. --15:08, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

Old Ghosts Changes

The creatures dropping 7 loot are also dropping 370 etc req weapons with higher mods so we'll need to add another row for tier 7 loot I think. Also I'll update the creature stats pages to update the tier for these creatures (seems restricted to shard droppers, not everything in those areas). Esp now with a dev posting that the loot is working as intended.

The covenant and olthoi cov seem to have slightly different AL ranges so I made a new table for it. --Tlosk 21:05, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Loot properties

This still needs revisions. I adjusted the monster levels, some enchantment levels, and some weapon skill wield req levels.

I am quite certain through personal testing that the following are correct:

  • Standard monster levels vs tier.
  • Workmanships on tiers 4-6.
  • Enchantment levels on tiers 4-6.
  • Weapon skill reqs (all three columns) on tiers 4-7.

I have not confirmed anything else, but I have no specific reason to believe anything else to be incorrect.

I find the column headings to be misleading, in some cases identical for weapons versus covenant armor, but I was not sure if I was within my bounds to make a structural rather than data-related change.

Finally, I believe that scroll levels are equal to enchantment levels, but even if they're forced to be identical by game mechanics, it might be helpful to put scrolls into a separate column. --Elije 22:47, 28 June 2009 (CST)

The existing information was based on the detailed recording of literally thousands of loot drops, primarily on creatures at boundary levels. The first step in defining a loot tier and characterizing the range of values loot can have was done by killing a single creature type hundreds of times. Because each creature can only belong to a single tier, killing enough of that particular creature and examining all of the loot dropped will, given enough data, show the ranges.

In most cases creature level will give the tier, but unfortunately there are exceptions. That is why the loot tiers are independently listed on the creature pages, to allow for accurate tier identification for creatures that do not follow the level ranges that apply to most creatures. It's assumed that tiers don't overlap, so if 90% plus of creatures at level X drop Tier 3, and 90% of creatures at level X + 1 drop Tier 4, that's where the boundary is assumed to be.

All of the changes you made to the loot ranges are a side effect of having changed the level ranges. Could you please post examples of creatures you used as the basis for changing the level ranges? It can be easy to misidentify the loot tier a creature belongs to without enough data since the loot you find overlaps between tiers. In other words, you could kill 20 creatures and if you only found workmanship 2 - 6 you might assign it to Tier 2, but if you were to kill 50 creatures you might occasionally find a work 7 item, which would make it Tier 3 in reality.

Could you elaborate on what you mean by confusing column titles, what should they be changed to?

I also thought scrolls and enchantment levels were the same, but the data showed they were not. --Tlosk 00:25, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I understand your skepticism. This isn't the result of an arbitrary set of random pulls. This is based upon two things: my own extensive analysis of loot on creatures primarily 75 and above, and my testing of hypotheses formed by dev comments, such as when they "pulled back" loot tiers by 5 monster levels soon after normalizing loot so players would be "prepared" to enter the next tier of difficulty which caused tiers to start with monster levels ending in 5 instead of 0. Another indicator is weapon masteries on armor, which originally did not exist in the lowest tiers; Turbine eventually fixed this by adding AL to cloth shoes, gloves, and hats, which could always generate a range of weapon and skill masteries each.

For example, I clarified that tier 5 can indeed generate majors. That was the result of months of pulls, as this is extremely rare; I have verified majors primarily from level 118 Muck Gluttons (Moarsmen) which were in tier 5 by hypothesis and by verification of loot profiles. Every time I loot a creature, I analyze and verify the loot to the expected profile.

Through this testing I have verified the lack of red garnet, black garnet, and jet in tier 6, as well as having discovered red garnet as low as tier 2 on granite golems (level 35) and wool as high as tier 4 on Miry Moarsmen (level 110). I recognized wisps at Crystaline Crag as being an exception to level predictors (levels 110 through 130 so far) and in tier 6 instead of extending my profile of tier 5. I believe, but have not concluded, that some eaters have a loot tier lower than indicated by their levels.

Finally, I separated the sections where I was certain from the ones where I wasn't, because I have not done extensive research on tiers below 4.


The column titles are confusing because the headings for covenant armor are not clear. They do not readily indicate that they are in any way associated with armor. Furthermore, the heading "Missile Reqs" is used both for weapon skill to wield missile weapons and missile defense skill to wield covenant armor. (I have done no analysis on covenant armor and did not touch the numbers already present.)


I'm not trying to cause trouble. I'm trying to share my knowledge where the Wiki specifically stated it needed further revision.


Oh, and the scrolls. My statement about them was a misunderstanding on my part and should be disregarded. The scrolls are addressed properly and correctly in the previous chart, and most certainly do not match enchantment levels. I conflated the two because tier 5 has both 5,6,7 scrolls and 5,6,7 enchantments, but other tiers do not always match from scrolls to enchantments. --Elije 05:57, 29 June 2009 (CST)

Cool, I hadn't seen the comments about the changing profiles, thanks for the info. You're right about the headings, I added covenant and base to them to clarify them, thanks.

Oh and do you have a link to the comments? I am curious how far they went in modifying existing content. --Tlosk 09:23, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Weapon Properties

I think we should include estimates for max stats for the 420/400 tier 7 + mage/archer equivalents. For example, looks like most weapons are +20/+20/+4/+4 bonuses now, and probably +25 melee for UA/Jitte, but we might not have proof shots for all those for a pretty long time. So basically for stats that we can estimate, put the currently known top value in normal text, then line break and put the estimate in italic or colored text. --An Adventurer 13:08, 4 February 2009 (CST)

That's a good idea. --Tlosk 16:16, 4 February 2009 (CST)

Old

These icons are temporary until trophy listings become more complete.
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Because of the difficulty of making a full, matching suit of the new armor types, I've decided to add an Images section to the armor pages with a shot of each piece close up (small image size) so we'll at least have something until we can get good full suit images to go at the top. --Tlosk 08:26, 22 December 2008 (CST)

The Magic Reqs, Melee Reqs, and Missile Reqs listed under Loot#Loot_Properties are wield reqs for weapons, not cov armor reqs or activation reqs. The first set of caster/weapon/missile reqs is not need - the two should be merged together. Cov reqs do not need to be listed under loot properties, those reqs and the loot tiers they are found in are already listed under Loot#Covenant_Armor. --An Adventurer 20:16, 14 December 2008 (CST)

I'd like to suggest a few, or perhaps a few dozen, separate pages where screenshots of maximum stats can be posted. Just low quality jpgs, enough to show the stats. Set up a table, say 3 wide, with description above and shot below, something like:

Alduressa Maximum AL Amuli Maximum AL Celdon Maximum AL

The reason I suggest multiple pages is because of all the types of armor and weapons and all the different stats we would want the maximum for. It would simply be too many images and too much information to list on a single page. If we also want to include minimum burden, we would need a spot for every piece of every type of armor. These max stat screenshot pages would be listed on the loot page. Images would be named the same as the title above them to make uploading new max stats easier.

Another option would be to include all this information on the talk pages of the various armor type pages I created. So for example, max stats for alduressa would be posted on Talk:Alduressa Armor. We would, of course, then have to create the same style pages for all loot types of weapons. This option follows the style we have for quest items and creatures, posting SSs of stats on the talk page, so I am leaning towards this idea. --An Adventurer 11:01, 11 December 2008 (CST)

I like the talk page as well for it. Nice adding the 400 tier 7 lines, that'll be good to have. --Tlosk 13:43, 12 December 2008 (CST)
Yeah, thanks to the giftbox quest I finally got some new loot pulls. I noticed a few 400 wield weapons with attack and def mods higher than +15%, so I figured that maybe the tier 7 400s (and corresponding bows/wands) have better stats than those available on regular loot. After thinking it over, I don't think we really need pages for every type of melee weapon since most weapons of a class share the same max stats. So I'd like to suggest keeping the max stat screenshots for weapons on that weapons talk page, for example max sword stats go on Talk:Swords. For weapons like axe, we will just break the talk page into axes and hammers, with all the screenshots below each section. Stats for armor can remain on the armor talk pages. Sheilds, hand, head, and foot armor can go on the talk pages for their items, like weapons. --An Adventurer 13:54, 12 December 2008 (CST)
Sounds good. --Tlosk 18:39, 12 December 2008 (CST)
Thanks for throwing up some tables in the talk pages. Just one thing though - To be thorough, we'll actually need one of the set of tables you provided for each wield tier. At the very least, we will need tables for 420, 400 (tier 7) and 400 wields, and the corresponding magic and missile wields. The images you've uploaded already should be renamed to include the wield. I've updated the UA page to reflect this. --An Adventurer 12:16, 14 December 2008 (CST)
I'd suggest limiting it to the areas where it hasn't been solidly established. For armor it's pretty much all up in the air but with weapons they're more systematic and for everything but the no wield and tier 7 stuff there isn't really any question what the maxes are. If, as I suspect, the only difference between 400 and 420 tier 7 is the damage I might even think we'd just need shots of true maxes (irregardless of req) and no wields. It's your decision though, you've done the most on Loot.--Tlosk 12:48, 16 December 2008 (CST)
I think we should model all weapons after the talk:UA page, even if most stats are well established and we don't upload images. It would just be better to include the wield tier in the name of the image. You never know if turbine will update weapon stats in the future. But in most cases I'm fine with just listing the established max stats without hosting an image to prove it. One thing though- every place I have seen lists the max mods of no-wield weapons as +15 +15. I have never seen a no wield go that high except for magic casters. --An Adventurer 12:49, 17 December 2008 (CST)
Me either, I've done a lot of low tier stuff this past week and while I've seen missle and magic mods the same, the highest I've found were +7 (outside UA def etc). I was going to check some chests too but I doubt they go to 15. I'll update the weapon talk pages to follow the UA page. --Tlosk 14:05, 17 December 2008 (CST)

Kabuton is yoroi. Koujia, like celdon and amuli, have no hand, foot, or head armor. The same is true for the 2nd tier viamont armor, tenassa I believe. The crested helm (the one that looks like the helm of the crag) is Chiran. --An Adventurer 15:26, 21 November 2008 (CST)


I'm unsure if the Kabuton is for Yoroi, Koijia, or both? Perhaps the Crested Helm is for Kojia, or would you say Koujia has none? --Tlosk 11:54, 21 November 2008 (CST)

I do not have any larger versions of those images, but I can take them again. I had another thought for armor though - in the body armor table, each armor name would be a link to a page about that armor. It would be set up like this: [[Celdon Armor|Celdon]]. Each page could have some larger shots and color variations (dyed and loot) as well as link to any quest armor of that style - and whatever else would be relevant. And then we can take the picture sections out of the main loot page completely. --An Adventurer 17:10, 7 November 2008 (CST)

I've put on hold for a day or two updating the old tier numbers, I want to do some more research in game to make sure we have solid tier spreads. --Tlosk 13:30, 7 November 2008 (CST)

Do you have the original shots that you made the small shots from? I was thinking it would be cool to have a small and large version of the armor pictures, and then link the small picture to the large one so if you click on it you would get a more detailed picture. If you don't maybe we could at least do it for ones we add in the future. --Tlosk 13:24, 7 November 2008 (CST)

I posted this in Talk:Risks and Rewards but didn't get any response there. In Risk and Rewards, the patch that upped the max ALs, I noticed that the base AL of store-bought armor increased. So, are max ALs determined by base? They didn't mention increasing store armors, but then again, they also didn't mention the increase to max AL. --An Adventurer 10:09, 7 November 2008 (CST)

Keep an eye out to see if there might be two tiers of max AL, like there used to be higher max for heumes (I found some studded leather boots with 278 but not sure if that's for everything or just boots). If there is then we can just make two entries and distinguish them in the areas covered boxes. --Tlosk 09:58, 7 November 2008 (CST)

Added section headings to some of the tables to be able to directly link to them from scrolls etc. --Tlosk 07:55, 5 November 2008 (CST)

I'm in the process of converting all the loot tier number in the creature tables to be consistent with the revised tiers here.--Tlosk 07:00, 5 November 2008 (CST)

I included Society Armor because it's more akin to loot armor than quest armor since it has random stats and workmanship. --Tlosk 22:29, 4 November 2008 (CST)

Found the original turbine article that ACvault copied its info from:

http://ac.turbinegames.com/index.php?page_id=217
earliest web archive
newest web archive

--An Adventurer 19:17, 27 October 2008 (CDT)

There's also some useful information here:
http://ac.turbine.com/index.php?page_id=224
--Tlosk 23:23, 4 April 2009 (CDT)

Are you sure? I know when turbine redid the loot system there were only 6 tiers. But at that time there were also only up to 325 wield melees and such. I thought that they added tier 7 at a later point. At the time of the first loot redistribution there was even talk of adding another tier, with wield reqs similar to what we have not (see 2nd ACvault link). This is the first I have heard of that there was not a tier 7, and I and others have been throwing around the tier 8 term a lot without being corrected about it. --An Adventurer 19:23, 14 October 2008 (CDT)

There are only 7 loot tiers, not 8. Previous to the 100th patch, there were only 6 loot tiers. The 100th patch introduced only 1 loot tier -- no work was done to change any of the existing tiers. It's called "tier 8" mostly because of the confusion between "tier 7" and "level 8 spells."

There are a couple of ways to easily distinguish between tier 5 and 6 without looking at the trophies. 1) Tier 5 is ws 3-9, while Tier 6 is ws 4-10. (Of course, you can get Tier 5 confused which Tier 6 Quality, which is 4-8, but items of ws 9 with no items of ws 10 dispels that quickly.) 2) Red garnet, jet, and black garnet cannot appear in Tier 6. There are a few other gems that don't, but those are the ones most people look for first.

--Afura Mann 19:14, 14 October 2008 (CDT)

The info cards look good, but it makes it harder to compare the stats, so I prefer the second one where all the information is together. That makes it very easy to compare the stats at a glance. Keeping all of the images close together also makes them easier to compare.

I'd also like to see minimum loot-generated burden of the pieces. Maybe separate the Covenant shield from the rest, like you have for the armor, since each wield requirement has different maximums.

--Widgeon 05:33, 10 September 2008 (CDT)

I'd like some feedback on the loot article so far. Specifically, the armor section. What do you think of the little 'info card' look I made? Should we keep the armor section like this, or redesign it in a way so that all the info is contained in a table (or several, shields/armor/etc could all be separate as they are now) and the small pictures could be below the table(s) or not included at all? I've made an example in the Sandbox with shields in both formats.

Also, do you think it looks better now with all the tables aligned left instead of centered?

--An Adventurer 19:48, 8 September 2008 (CDT)


The first one was from a thread post by Srand on turbine's forums that is no longer available (don't you hate how forums trash old threads after a while). The second one is probably still there, when they redid the site a few weeks ago they did it in a way that broke all old links (very frustrating), though a lot of the content is still there, just has a different index (if you strip all the cruft). I may or may do a new index, the old one took a long time to do and I just wish I had archived the information locally, which I had plans to but they made no announcements just turned off the old site abrubtly. --Tlosk 19:04, 8 September 2008 (CDT)

I would like to get screenshots of the missing armor types up as well, but I lack the matching sets. If anyone is interested in putting up some pictures, all images are named <Type> Armor Small.jpg. They are 100x150px. They were taken inside any meeting hall, standing flat against the stone wall to the right of the upper throne (right if you are sitting in it) zoomed out slightly with the side window open. Then I simply used photoshop to scale the picture down by percentages until the picture of the armor fit within the 100x150 small picture.

I would like to have the Amuli/Celdon/Koujia all be greater shadow armor, preferably the 30+ version of the armor, because the silver/brown colored armor is very neutral. Unfortunately, I do not own any shadow armor, and do not want to spend the time/scints to gather armor I'll use for just 1 picture. As for the Lorica/Nariyid, any shot of matching armor would be great.




Information regarding the loot system, although dated, can be found on ACVault:

I believe these two articles are direct copy+pastes from a turbine article, but I have not yet located the offical source.

More Links:

--An Adventurer 09:31, 26 August 2008 (CDT)

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